COUNCIL MEETING AGENDA
Tuesday, January 14, 2025
7:00 p.m.
COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES
January 14, 2025, Council Minutes
Attendees: Lisa Nelson, Rita Horst, Kjerstine Nielsen, Stephanie Varnum, Karen Morton, Pam Stein, Pastor Ben, Michael Claussen, Debbie Lewis, Naomi Kurtz, Sam Kitchens, Kevin Smith.
The first council meeting of 2025 was brought to order at 7:03 PM by President Lisa Nelson. Pastor Ben led the group in prayer from Psalm 118.
December 2024 minutes were approved by the council.
Finalization of the healthy finance report is on the horizon. General offering income and youth had overperformed, due to limited amount of expenses. CLP budget figures were in the black, with a 50-50 share plan in place, Sam Kitchens proposed a motion to approve CLC's 50% windfall and advise the financial committee to use their discretion to apply the funds to the proper budget item. Seconded by Kjerstine , and council approved the motion. If the amount goes towards the building fund, it should not skew the budget numbers as this would go into the building reserve account.
The property ministry team had contacted an architect, that helped design and build the church, to do a walk-through to advise us on a plan for usage both long and short term.
A vision plan was discussed, and the property committee will move forward .
Annual reports from each ministry team are due immediately!!!
The strategic plan is moving along nicely , as all council members are urged to get on board with the proposals.
Christ Lutheran Church annual meeting is set for Sunday, February 2, 2025. Electronic mail will be used for contacting congregational members of the gathering , along with announcements at church every Sunday in January.
Our updated technology is in the process of being formatted with new tablets and computers, along with faster connectivity.
The worship committee is introducing a "culture of invitation" allowing visitors the opportunity to become more familiar with Christ Lutheran Church.
The church committee will be re-examining our building usage agreement, to inquire into safety awareness concerns, as discussed with the council.
Forthcoming Events:::::
January 26:
Congregational Forum on Proposed Budget
Feb. 2 :
Annual Congregational Meeting
March 2:
Transfiguration of Our Lord
March 6:
Ash Wednesday
Skillfully prepared and faithfully submitted...
Michael Claussen
Christ Lutheran Church secretary
PASTOR
February 5, 2925
The seraph touched my mouth with [the coal] and said: “Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.” Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I; send me!”
Isaiah 6:7-8 (Lesson for February 9)
Goals for 2025
With the Strategic Initiative teams up and running, I’m trying to keep my own goals more modest and focused this year. They are:
Reliable tech interface. I am still using the guest network on my personal laptop and unable to connect to our network printers. This year I need to get this solved, either by networking my own computer or acquiring a work computer that is compatible with our network. I have spoken to some people about this but just need to get it done.
Follow up and new member ministry. We should be set for a strong new member group in Lent. I’ve spoken to two people about working with me on this process this year, and they were receptive. I am also looking for ways to streamline follow-up with guests. This includes getting a program for automated texts.
Sabbatical planning. Now that the budget is officially approved, I’m working on planning the timing, coverage, and organization for a sabbatical in late 2025 and/or early 2026. I will aim to have a timeline by the next meeting. Thank you for your support!
Campus Outreach to SMU
I am feeling stuck here and I think I need a small team to work with me on this. Our student participants have been hard to stay connected to.
Small Group Learning for Lent
We’re putting together small groups for Lent, following the model we used last fall. Details forthcoming shortly, but right now I’m expecting five groups (including the new member group) to be running during Lent, so there should be ample opportunity for learning and connection.
Etc.
I have a new essay in the February edition of the Christian Century about how my experimental alma mater started my theological education (https://www.christiancentury.org/features/dustpan-desert-and-search-moral-order)
I was home sick with influenza January 16-17. Very bad flu season this year.
Pastoral Activities
January 14: Meeting with Dcn. John Dellis and Kirk Barrett of Lutheran Foundation of the Southwest re: planned giving (office)
Preaching text study (Zoom)
Nominating committee call
Pastoral care call
Preschool board
Church council
January 15: Meeting with Eliana
Staff meeting
Bible study
Meeting with visitor (Ascension Coffee, Design District)
January 17: Call with member re: planned giving
January 19: Preach at Holy Communion
Co-lead adult education on Sierra Leone
January 21: Preaching text study (Zoom)
Meeting with Laura Haynie
January 22: Meeting with Hando
Pastoral care call (voicemail)
Pastoral care call (voicemail)
Bible study
January 23: Meeting with Eliana
Nominating committee call
Campus office hours
Meeting with Walker Moore of Dallas Area Interfaith
Worship and Spiritual Life Team (Teams)
January 26: Preach and preside at Holy Communion
Budget Forum
January 17: Pastoral care call (voicemail)
January 28: Preaching text study (Zoom)
Call with visitor
Pastoral cabinet meeting (office)
January 29: Reference call for colleague
Staff meeting
Bible study
January 30: Lunch with Nathan Swenson-Reinhold
Dallas Area Interfaith meeting (Golden Gate Missionary Baptist Church)
February 2: Preach and preside at Holy Communion
Annual meeting of the congregation
February 3: Call to member re: planned giving
Lunch with the Rev. Robert Preece (retired from Zion 12/24)
February 4: Eastern Mission Conference meeting (Good Shepherd, Irving)
Preaching text study (Zoom)
Premarital counseling (office)
Meeting with visitors (Teams)
February 5: Preschool chapel
Visit to members re: leading new member group
Bible study
Pastoral care check-in (text)
Pastoral care call (voicemail)
Pastoral care visit (member’s home)
February 6: Men’s breakfast
Agenda meeting
Pastoral care visit (member’s home)
Meeting with Angie and Eliana re: ICE response policy
Respectfully submitted,
Pastor Ben Dueholm
MUSIC DIRECTOR
January:
Regular services and music rehearsals
Preludes, Hymns, Postludes
Liturgy, Offertory, Communion music
Weekly service music/hymn selecting
Soloists/Cantors: music preparation, accompanying, music arranging
Rehearsals with soloists/cantors/instrumentalists/choir
Soloists/Cantors schedule: February-March
Guest singers/musicians: scheduling, communication
Piano tuning
One License, CCLI: online reporting
Christ Notes article
Music ministry Monthly Report
Meetings: Staff, Spiritual Life, Pastor Ben
Music ministry communications
The following soloists and groups led worship with a variety of repertoire in January: Don and Pat Rowland, Ann Stordahl, Kelly Austin, Betsy Lintel, and Alicia Claussen
Hando Nahkur, D.M.A.
Director of Music
CLP EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
PRESCHOOL BOARD
The Preschool is working with the Finance Team to come up with a Tuition Assistance program to accommodate existing scholarships for the remainder of this school year. We are also brainstorming for ways to create a fund for future requests and better procedures for applications and awards.
Enrollment was at 77 for the month of December.
Enrollment for the next school year starts soon.
YOUTH AND FAMILY MINISTRY
ADMINISTRATION MINISTRY
Property Committee
In Progress
Respectfully submitted,
Debbie Lewis
COMMUNICATIONS MINISTRY
COMMUNITY OUTREACH MINISTRY
CONGREGATIONAL LIFE
Events completed since last report:
Respectfully submitted,
Rita Horst
Congregational Life Ministry Team
WORSHIP & SPIRITUAL LIFE MINISTRY
Agenda for the Meeting of the Worship and Spiritual Life Committee
Jan 23, 2025 at 6:00 pm
Via Microsoft Teams Online
Participants: Cheryl K, Cathy B, Karen M, Suzanne D, Hando N, Pastor Ben, Kevin S.
Opened w prayer
Christmas season review:
Ideas for shortening the length of the Christmas Eve service (ran almost 90 minutes) were discussed including using fewer verses of hymns or other elements of the service.
Consensus is that the season of services went well and no other review is necessary.
Review the Adult Education Hour calendar
January 26: Congregational Forum on the Proposed 2025 Budget
February 2: Annual Meeting of the Congregation
February 9: Worship in an Age of Political Polarization
February 16/23: Sermon Overtime
Lent – We will use the same small group learning format from Fall classes during Lent
From Pastor Ben - Discuss invitation to host “Icons in Transformation” exhibit
Discussion of this topic was tabled until the next meeting
However – concerns about space/hours conflicts with the preschool were expressed.
From Pastor Ben - Lent: I have had the thought of reviving the original Fidelia and the Pirates five-part series (last put on here on Wednesday nights in 2022) as the “sermon” on Sunday mornings March 9 through April 6. I may or may not do brief homilies in connection with the confession/forgiveness part of the service as well but the drama would be the main thing in the “word” part of the service. Curious how people think about that possibility.
Discussion about this generally favored the idea.
Adding a homily/sermonette was suggested.
Communicating it in advance (as is the usual practice) would be important to its success.
From Pastor Ben - Small groups for Lent: anyone interested in leading one? Or ideas about who would be good to ask? Curriculum can be provided this time.
All agreed the small groups format with multiple classes / times is good to use again this lent.
Pastor Ben will hold a new member class during lent.
Possible group leaders for now (to be determined):
Pastor Ben – New member class
Cheryl / Virginia – group to study from the book “Prone to Wander”
Kerry D. - Grief support or other topic
Isaac Y / Kevin S – topic tbd
Cathy suggested a class on meditation.
From Pastor Ben - Cliff Marquardt bequest: this was a memorial gift from eight years ago that Linda, Cliff’s widow, has recently asked me about, suggesting it be used for “altar/communion” furnishings. We should really do this—obviously no one had meant for the funds to sit around this long. I suggest considering some updated paraments for Easter/Christmas or for the green Sundays (if the current items were hand-made or donated by someone still active in the church that would be a consideration), or candlesticks that can be used as torches for processions (the current candlesticks are original to the sanctuary and show their age, though I’m fond of them). Linda is willing to add to the bequest if needed.
Discussion on this matter affirmed that there are current needs of the type for which the Bequest was received. Cheryl reminded the committee of her family’s similar bequest that also remains to be used. Pastor Ben, Cheryl K (and possibly Connie U – need to ask her) plan to work on identifying specific items for purchase or refurbishment, etc.
Altar Guild – update, if needed, from Connie U
No matters to update
Flower Team – update, if needed, from Laura S
No matters to update
Prayer Ministry – update, if needed, from Cathy B
In person meetings returned in January
Prayer request list was refreshed. 5 attended this Wed.
Wed Bible Study – update, if needed, from Cheryl K
Continuing to discuss Lectionary readings – no other matters to update.
Online Worship/Sanctuary Technology – update, if needed, from Gary H
No matters to update
Other Business
For discussion: Connie received a comment that during the Sunday before Veterans Day, no mention of recognizing Veterans occurred. They requested that such recognition be included on such a Sunday.
This is to be discussed at the next meeting
Hando expressed a concern about an upcoming topic in adult education hour. The concern related to what extent, if any, politics should be the focus in church activities. The matter was tabled until Pastor Ben can participate in the discussion – next meeting (Pastor Ben had to leave this meeting early due to a conflicting commitment).
Next Meetings are:
Closed w Prayer
Adjourned
FINANCE MINISTRY
Thank you to everyone who attended the Annual Meeting and supported the budget.
The attached are the final approved budgets for CLC and CLP as presented to and voted on by the Council. Note that I added the list of special restricted funds that will be used to pay the indicated expenses in 2025 (last sheet in this set of spreadsheets).
Also attached is the CLC Budget by Ministry Group. These are the budgets for each individual Council Committee. Please be sure that any of your committee members who incur expenses and submit expense reimbursement forms are aware of the budget limits and that they carefully use the appropriate code. This is especially important for Property, Worship Music) and Youth as there are specific amounts to be paid out of the special restricted funds for some of your expenses.
The CLP budget includes an amount for teacher and other discounts and their anticipated income has already been adjusted for those discounts. They have a policy in place for those requests. Because the requests for the spring semester are larger than usual, Angie and I are working on creating a task force of Finance Committee and Preschool Board members to review and potentially revise the discount policy.
Pam Stein
Tuesday, January 14, 2025
7:00 p.m.
COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES
January 14, 2025, Council Minutes
Attendees: Lisa Nelson, Rita Horst, Kjerstine Nielsen, Stephanie Varnum, Karen Morton, Pam Stein, Pastor Ben, Michael Claussen, Debbie Lewis, Naomi Kurtz, Sam Kitchens, Kevin Smith.
The first council meeting of 2025 was brought to order at 7:03 PM by President Lisa Nelson. Pastor Ben led the group in prayer from Psalm 118.
December 2024 minutes were approved by the council.
Finalization of the healthy finance report is on the horizon. General offering income and youth had overperformed, due to limited amount of expenses. CLP budget figures were in the black, with a 50-50 share plan in place, Sam Kitchens proposed a motion to approve CLC's 50% windfall and advise the financial committee to use their discretion to apply the funds to the proper budget item. Seconded by Kjerstine , and council approved the motion. If the amount goes towards the building fund, it should not skew the budget numbers as this would go into the building reserve account.
The property ministry team had contacted an architect, that helped design and build the church, to do a walk-through to advise us on a plan for usage both long and short term.
A vision plan was discussed, and the property committee will move forward .
Annual reports from each ministry team are due immediately!!!
The strategic plan is moving along nicely , as all council members are urged to get on board with the proposals.
Christ Lutheran Church annual meeting is set for Sunday, February 2, 2025. Electronic mail will be used for contacting congregational members of the gathering , along with announcements at church every Sunday in January.
Our updated technology is in the process of being formatted with new tablets and computers, along with faster connectivity.
The worship committee is introducing a "culture of invitation" allowing visitors the opportunity to become more familiar with Christ Lutheran Church.
The church committee will be re-examining our building usage agreement, to inquire into safety awareness concerns, as discussed with the council.
Forthcoming Events:::::
January 26:
Congregational Forum on Proposed Budget
Feb. 2 :
Annual Congregational Meeting
March 2:
Transfiguration of Our Lord
March 6:
Ash Wednesday
Skillfully prepared and faithfully submitted...
Michael Claussen
Christ Lutheran Church secretary
PASTOR
February 5, 2925
The seraph touched my mouth with [the coal] and said: “Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.” Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I; send me!”
Isaiah 6:7-8 (Lesson for February 9)
Goals for 2025
With the Strategic Initiative teams up and running, I’m trying to keep my own goals more modest and focused this year. They are:
Reliable tech interface. I am still using the guest network on my personal laptop and unable to connect to our network printers. This year I need to get this solved, either by networking my own computer or acquiring a work computer that is compatible with our network. I have spoken to some people about this but just need to get it done.
Follow up and new member ministry. We should be set for a strong new member group in Lent. I’ve spoken to two people about working with me on this process this year, and they were receptive. I am also looking for ways to streamline follow-up with guests. This includes getting a program for automated texts.
Sabbatical planning. Now that the budget is officially approved, I’m working on planning the timing, coverage, and organization for a sabbatical in late 2025 and/or early 2026. I will aim to have a timeline by the next meeting. Thank you for your support!
Campus Outreach to SMU
I am feeling stuck here and I think I need a small team to work with me on this. Our student participants have been hard to stay connected to.
Small Group Learning for Lent
We’re putting together small groups for Lent, following the model we used last fall. Details forthcoming shortly, but right now I’m expecting five groups (including the new member group) to be running during Lent, so there should be ample opportunity for learning and connection.
Etc.
I have a new essay in the February edition of the Christian Century about how my experimental alma mater started my theological education (https://www.christiancentury.org/features/dustpan-desert-and-search-moral-order)
I was home sick with influenza January 16-17. Very bad flu season this year.
Pastoral Activities
January 14: Meeting with Dcn. John Dellis and Kirk Barrett of Lutheran Foundation of the Southwest re: planned giving (office)
Preaching text study (Zoom)
Nominating committee call
Pastoral care call
Preschool board
Church council
January 15: Meeting with Eliana
Staff meeting
Bible study
Meeting with visitor (Ascension Coffee, Design District)
January 17: Call with member re: planned giving
January 19: Preach at Holy Communion
Co-lead adult education on Sierra Leone
January 21: Preaching text study (Zoom)
Meeting with Laura Haynie
January 22: Meeting with Hando
Pastoral care call (voicemail)
Pastoral care call (voicemail)
Bible study
January 23: Meeting with Eliana
Nominating committee call
Campus office hours
Meeting with Walker Moore of Dallas Area Interfaith
Worship and Spiritual Life Team (Teams)
January 26: Preach and preside at Holy Communion
Budget Forum
January 17: Pastoral care call (voicemail)
January 28: Preaching text study (Zoom)
Call with visitor
Pastoral cabinet meeting (office)
January 29: Reference call for colleague
Staff meeting
Bible study
January 30: Lunch with Nathan Swenson-Reinhold
Dallas Area Interfaith meeting (Golden Gate Missionary Baptist Church)
February 2: Preach and preside at Holy Communion
Annual meeting of the congregation
February 3: Call to member re: planned giving
Lunch with the Rev. Robert Preece (retired from Zion 12/24)
February 4: Eastern Mission Conference meeting (Good Shepherd, Irving)
Preaching text study (Zoom)
Premarital counseling (office)
Meeting with visitors (Teams)
February 5: Preschool chapel
Visit to members re: leading new member group
Bible study
Pastoral care check-in (text)
Pastoral care call (voicemail)
Pastoral care visit (member’s home)
February 6: Men’s breakfast
Agenda meeting
Pastoral care visit (member’s home)
Meeting with Angie and Eliana re: ICE response policy
Respectfully submitted,
Pastor Ben Dueholm
MUSIC DIRECTOR
January:
Regular services and music rehearsals
Preludes, Hymns, Postludes
Liturgy, Offertory, Communion music
Weekly service music/hymn selecting
Soloists/Cantors: music preparation, accompanying, music arranging
Rehearsals with soloists/cantors/instrumentalists/choir
Soloists/Cantors schedule: February-March
Guest singers/musicians: scheduling, communication
Piano tuning
One License, CCLI: online reporting
Christ Notes article
Music ministry Monthly Report
Meetings: Staff, Spiritual Life, Pastor Ben
Music ministry communications
The following soloists and groups led worship with a variety of repertoire in January: Don and Pat Rowland, Ann Stordahl, Kelly Austin, Betsy Lintel, and Alicia Claussen
Hando Nahkur, D.M.A.
Director of Music
CLP EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
PRESCHOOL BOARD
The Preschool is working with the Finance Team to come up with a Tuition Assistance program to accommodate existing scholarships for the remainder of this school year. We are also brainstorming for ways to create a fund for future requests and better procedures for applications and awards.
Enrollment was at 77 for the month of December.
Enrollment for the next school year starts soon.
YOUTH AND FAMILY MINISTRY
ADMINISTRATION MINISTRY
Property Committee
In Progress
- Enable contract signed and initial payment made; Phase 1 to begin shortly
- Make final decision on contractor to erect a security gate on the exterior stairwell; two bids received; work to begin in next 30-60 days
- Pam to meet with Architexas in next few weeks to finalize proposal on master plan; committee to prioritize what action items to start
- New lawn maintenance company retained; to start work in February or March
Respectfully submitted,
Debbie Lewis
COMMUNICATIONS MINISTRY
COMMUNITY OUTREACH MINISTRY
CONGREGATIONAL LIFE
Events completed since last report:
- Weekly Fellowship Coffee with donuts, cookies, and other event/reception leftovers; Attendance 30 or more per week.
- At the annual meeting on Feb 2, 2025, we served 122 breakfast tacos & bottled water in addition to the usual donut holes, coffee, and lemonade to approximately 50 people.
- Lenten season: March 5-April 17. Congregational Life team will meet Feb 15 to consider options for light meal following Lenten services.
- Annual Scott Kludt Memorial Frisco Rough Riders home baseball game in early May. Date & number of tickets yet to be determined.
Respectfully submitted,
Rita Horst
Congregational Life Ministry Team
WORSHIP & SPIRITUAL LIFE MINISTRY
Agenda for the Meeting of the Worship and Spiritual Life Committee
Jan 23, 2025 at 6:00 pm
Via Microsoft Teams Online
Participants: Cheryl K, Cathy B, Karen M, Suzanne D, Hando N, Pastor Ben, Kevin S.
Opened w prayer
Christmas season review:
Ideas for shortening the length of the Christmas Eve service (ran almost 90 minutes) were discussed including using fewer verses of hymns or other elements of the service.
Consensus is that the season of services went well and no other review is necessary.
Review the Adult Education Hour calendar
January 26: Congregational Forum on the Proposed 2025 Budget
February 2: Annual Meeting of the Congregation
February 9: Worship in an Age of Political Polarization
February 16/23: Sermon Overtime
Lent – We will use the same small group learning format from Fall classes during Lent
From Pastor Ben - Discuss invitation to host “Icons in Transformation” exhibit
Discussion of this topic was tabled until the next meeting
However – concerns about space/hours conflicts with the preschool were expressed.
From Pastor Ben - Lent: I have had the thought of reviving the original Fidelia and the Pirates five-part series (last put on here on Wednesday nights in 2022) as the “sermon” on Sunday mornings March 9 through April 6. I may or may not do brief homilies in connection with the confession/forgiveness part of the service as well but the drama would be the main thing in the “word” part of the service. Curious how people think about that possibility.
Discussion about this generally favored the idea.
Adding a homily/sermonette was suggested.
Communicating it in advance (as is the usual practice) would be important to its success.
From Pastor Ben - Small groups for Lent: anyone interested in leading one? Or ideas about who would be good to ask? Curriculum can be provided this time.
All agreed the small groups format with multiple classes / times is good to use again this lent.
Pastor Ben will hold a new member class during lent.
Possible group leaders for now (to be determined):
Pastor Ben – New member class
Cheryl / Virginia – group to study from the book “Prone to Wander”
Kerry D. - Grief support or other topic
Isaac Y / Kevin S – topic tbd
Cathy suggested a class on meditation.
From Pastor Ben - Cliff Marquardt bequest: this was a memorial gift from eight years ago that Linda, Cliff’s widow, has recently asked me about, suggesting it be used for “altar/communion” furnishings. We should really do this—obviously no one had meant for the funds to sit around this long. I suggest considering some updated paraments for Easter/Christmas or for the green Sundays (if the current items were hand-made or donated by someone still active in the church that would be a consideration), or candlesticks that can be used as torches for processions (the current candlesticks are original to the sanctuary and show their age, though I’m fond of them). Linda is willing to add to the bequest if needed.
Discussion on this matter affirmed that there are current needs of the type for which the Bequest was received. Cheryl reminded the committee of her family’s similar bequest that also remains to be used. Pastor Ben, Cheryl K (and possibly Connie U – need to ask her) plan to work on identifying specific items for purchase or refurbishment, etc.
Altar Guild – update, if needed, from Connie U
No matters to update
Flower Team – update, if needed, from Laura S
No matters to update
Prayer Ministry – update, if needed, from Cathy B
In person meetings returned in January
Prayer request list was refreshed. 5 attended this Wed.
Wed Bible Study – update, if needed, from Cheryl K
Continuing to discuss Lectionary readings – no other matters to update.
Online Worship/Sanctuary Technology – update, if needed, from Gary H
No matters to update
Other Business
For discussion: Connie received a comment that during the Sunday before Veterans Day, no mention of recognizing Veterans occurred. They requested that such recognition be included on such a Sunday.
This is to be discussed at the next meeting
Hando expressed a concern about an upcoming topic in adult education hour. The concern related to what extent, if any, politics should be the focus in church activities. The matter was tabled until Pastor Ben can participate in the discussion – next meeting (Pastor Ben had to leave this meeting early due to a conflicting commitment).
Next Meetings are:
- Thursday, Feb 20 at 6pm
- Thursday, Mar 20 at 6pm
Closed w Prayer
Adjourned
FINANCE MINISTRY
Thank you to everyone who attended the Annual Meeting and supported the budget.
The attached are the final approved budgets for CLC and CLP as presented to and voted on by the Council. Note that I added the list of special restricted funds that will be used to pay the indicated expenses in 2025 (last sheet in this set of spreadsheets).
Also attached is the CLC Budget by Ministry Group. These are the budgets for each individual Council Committee. Please be sure that any of your committee members who incur expenses and submit expense reimbursement forms are aware of the budget limits and that they carefully use the appropriate code. This is especially important for Property, Worship Music) and Youth as there are specific amounts to be paid out of the special restricted funds for some of your expenses.
The CLP budget includes an amount for teacher and other discounts and their anticipated income has already been adjusted for those discounts. They have a policy in place for those requests. Because the requests for the spring semester are larger than usual, Angie and I are working on creating a task force of Finance Committee and Preschool Board members to review and potentially revise the discount policy.
Pam Stein